Thread: Return of the 2 stroke?

Yamaha, KTM, and a couple other smaller brands are the only ones left to make 2 strokes bigger than 80cc's correct?

Just curious if you guys think Kawi, Honda, and Suzuki will ever start making 125s, 250s and maybe even something bigger - a 360 would be perfect. I rode my brothers 94 KX250 the other day and I forgot how fun 2 stroke 250s are. If Kawi still produced a 250 I would have it for sure. It's sad that I have to ride a yamaha or KTM if I want a 2 smoker.

This is also a way for me to vent.

PS Those service Honda and Kawi's with 500cc motors in them give me dirt wood.

smog laws

ive been trying to find more info on this, as kawi did not make a af 250 2stroke. and i know it is not a service kawi or mps built.

but john dowd was seen racing a- what could be factory alum built all new 250 2 stroke.

i herd that Honda was going to make the 85's again but we ill see where that goes i would like too see more 125s and 250s around tho

Originally Posted by mcdirt@1s1k

ive been trying to find more info on this, as kawi did not make a af 250 2stroke. and i know it is not a service kawi or mps built.

but john dowd was seen racing a- what could be factory alum built all new 250 2 stroke.

http://www.cyclenews.com/regional_ev...ing-Series-Rd3

http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/0...g-two-strokes/

check it

I actually have a 2007 CR250R, last year Honda make one

Originally Posted by roostthemoon

I actually have a 2007 CR250R, last year Honda make one

i have poor grammar soo im going to try to save other people from being bagged on like me but dont you mean made and not make bud

tj ive seen all them. no other pics of them.

ive even been browsing some European motocross forums, and if you look close to the service kawi 250s your going to notice something.

im not sure if the rumor is true or not but kawi may be making a come back and these are the test subjects.

also i may add, ama rule book says for all armature races a 250 2stroke can race 250fs. the class is 122ccto 250 cc open to 2 or 4 stroke. and the 450 class is 122cc-open 2 stroke or 4stroke. this has boosted 2 stroke sales. and ama pro is still in talks about next yr, as even stewert has been riding a 2010 yz 250.

with that said i still wont step down from the 450 class.

Originally Posted by mcdirt@1s1k

tj ive seen all them. no other pics of them.

ive even been browsing some European motocross forums, and if you look close to the service kawi 250s your going to notice something.

im not sure if the rumor is true or not but kawi may be making a come back and these are the test subjects.

also i may add, ama rule book says for all armature races a 250 2stroke can race 250fs. the class is 122ccto 250 cc open to 2 or 4 stroke. and the 450 class is 122cc-open 2 stroke or 4stroke. this has boosted 2 stroke sales. and ama pro is still in talks about next yr, as even stewert has been riding a 2010 yz 250.

with that said i still wont step down from the 450 class.

the 250 two-strokes leave me in the dust on the striates in GPs FML

http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/0...ed-two-stroke/

Pretty awesome for you 2 stroke doods.

anyone wanna buy an 06 yz250 in showroom condition pm me.

i would love to see them come back in full force! ive always had one. they are so damn easy to work on. id like to see some one put a new piston in a 4-stroker in 30 min

Originally Posted by camper shell fun

i would love to see them come back in full force! ive always had one. they are so damn easy to work on. id like to see some one put a new piston in a 4-stroker in 30 min

Not gonna happen! If I had to buy a new 2 stroke it would def be a future FI 300

Originally Posted by camper shell fun

i would love to see them come back in full force! ive always had one. they are so damn easy to work on. id like to see some one put a new piston in a 4-stroker in 30 min

Feel the same way. I kinda feel that most people jumped on a band wagon when the 4-strokes got super popular. Everyone says that 2-smokes suck, 4-stroke all the way. I disagree. If you know how to ride a 2-stroke, you can easily keep up with a 4-stroke.

2 stroke broke a valve again!!!!








The smog argument doesn't fly... I know I know, lots of words but if you're interested here's why...



http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/0...s-strike-back/

The two strokes in the article are putting out HUGE power number! 62 HP for a 125cc 2 stroKE?! wtf JEEZ. Will mixing of gas and oil be a thing of the past or not?

i would much rather ride my 2-stroke in the tight technical stuff than a 450. ive done it and it just feels bulky. i also think a 2-stroke rider can hop on a 4-stroke and ride it much better than a 4-stroke rider hopping on a 2-stroke.

There just isn't a high enough demand for all the factories to be making 2 strokes. Honds isn't even going to make a 2010 CRF450X due to the fact that they have enough '09's still.

Each bike requires R&D money. Why waste that time and money on a bike that will get smoked by a four stroke on an MX track? Why waste that money when it can all go towards just one bike instead of splitting it for 2 bikes.

There just isn't a high enough demand.

Originally Posted by Mike@pitb

There just isn't a high enough demand for all the factories to be making 2 strokes. Honds isn't even going to make a 2010 CRF450X due to the fact that they have enough '09's still.

Each bike requires R&D money. Why waste that time and money on a bike that will get smoked by a four stroke on an MX track? Why waste that money when it can all go towards just one bike instead of splitting it for 2 bikes.

There just isn't a high enough demand.

u seem to forget that that 4 stroke requires 200 more CCs to "smoke" that 2 stroke, and is a hell of alot more expensive to maintain.... I can rebuild the top end of my CR250 for 100 bucks, last TRX450 i did a top end on was 850 by the time it was all said and done... 4 strokes are not gonna be on top for much longer, people are quickly realizing how much of a pain in the ass all the new ones really are. Its not like the 4 strokes of 10-15 years ago. They have to push the limits so far in the motors to make the power to "smoke" a 2 stroke that the parts just cant be reliable anymore.

Ill stick with my 2 stroke, but the 4 strokes are nice cause they keep me busy with work. Seems like every week one of my friends 4 strokes is in my garage for something... Money dont bother me

holly shit i would not want to ride a 62 hp 125. my bike has hit 2 dynos and one at 61.4 and one at 61.3. so i know were it is at. i would be much faster on a 125 or 250f. my bike is purely to much hp for anything other then a mile or bigger mx track or long gp track. sx/ax its all wheel spin and i end up hurt.


as for the 450 will kill a 250 any day bull shit. RC lap times on the 250 2stroke was faster then the entire 450 class.


and some one buy me 2 service kawis. 1-125 and 1-250 alum frame 2smokes to go please.

Originally Posted by mcdirt@1s1k

holly shit i would not want to ride a 62 hp 125.

x2! i'm actualy kinda worried about how fast the 300 i'm gettin will be!

Originally Posted by 91yotaprerunner

u seem to forget that that 4 stroke requires 200 more CCs to "smoke" that 2 stroke, and is a hell of alot more expensive to maintain.... I can rebuild the top end of my CR250 for 100 bucks, last TRX450 i did a top end on was 850 by the time it was all said and done... 4 strokes are not gonna be on top for much longer, people are quickly realizing how much of a pain in the ass all the new ones really are. Its not like the 4 strokes of 10-15 years ago. They have to push the limits so far in the motors to make the power to "smoke" a 2 stroke that the parts just cant be reliable anymore.

Ill stick with my 2 stroke, but the 4 strokes are nice cause they keep me busy with work. Seems like every week one of my friends 4 strokes is in my garage for something... Money dont bother me

And who pays for the bike when it needs maintenance? You, not the factory. They couldn't give a shit what they do to your bike just as long as you buy it.

And the big difference between a 2 and 4 stroke. TORQUE! Gobs and gobs of torque. Torque wins races and wins sell bikes.

Originally Posted by mcdirt@1s1k

holly shit i would not want to ride a 62 hp 125. my bike has hit 2 dynos and one at 61.4 and one at 61.3. so i know were it is at. i would be much faster on a 125 or 250f. my bike is purely to much hp for anything other then a mile or bigger mx track or long gp track. sx/ax its all wheel spin and i end up hurt.


as for the 450 will kill a 250 any day bull shit. RC lap times on the 250 2stroke was faster then the entire 450 class.


and some one buy me 2 service kawis. 1-125 and 1-250 alum frame 2smokes to go please.

That's not fair. RC is not human. Neither is Stewart.

Originally Posted by Mike@pitb

And the big difference between a 2 and 4 stroke. TORQUE! Gobs and gobs of torque. Torque wins races and wins sell bikes.

wrong! again this takes us back to displacement. 450Fs have 200 more cc than 250s and 250Fs have twice the displacement.
THATs the reason they "have more torque"

horspower is a derivative of torque. a 250cc two stroke WILL have more torque and hp than a 250 our stroke

like i say over and over, people are comparing apples to oranges. put equal displacement up against each other and lets see what happens....... funny how 2 strokes have the be "handicapped" to compete with 4 strokes, but yet 4 strokes are still better.... doesnt make any sense to me

Originally Posted by I Love Tacos

wrong! again this takes us back to displacement. 450Fs have 200 more cc than 250s and 250Fs have twice the displacement.
THATs the reason they "have more torque"

horspower is a derivative of torque. a 250cc two stroke WILL have more torque and hp than a 250 our stroke

And when you race a 250 2 smoke what class is it run in? It's in with the 450's. As is a 125 with 250f's.

I'm not arguing what's what and what has more torque with what displacement.

The point of the thread was will 2 strokes make a come back. The point I made was factories will not make 2 bikes that will compete in the SAME CLASS when one of them is superior to the other. They are allowed a certain amount of money for R&D per year. I do not see them dividing this allotted amount of cash for a bike that has little demand. Why make 2 when you only need 1? Especially when one of them is frowned upon by environmentalists. Especially since Honda considers themselves a "green" company and they have admitted that the 2 stroke is dead.

Unless there is some huge improvement that makes a 2 stroke run on sunlight and the exhaust is water vapor, it's not gonna make a come back any time soon.

[quote=roostthemoon;1792610]Feel the same way. I kinda feel that most people jumped on a band wagon when the 4-strokes got super popular. Everyone says that 2-smokes suck, 4-stroke all the way. I disagree. If you know how to ride a 2-stroke, you can easily keep up with a 4-stroke.[/quote]

See "red" from my last post...

Originally Posted by Mike@pitb

There just isn't a high enough demand for all the factories to be making 2 strokes. Honds isn't even going to make a 2010 CRF450X due to the fact that they have enough '09's still.

Each bike requires R&D money. Why waste that time and money on a bike that will get smoked by a four stroke on an MX track? Why waste that money when it can all go towards just one bike instead of splitting it for 2 bikes.

Waste what time?

Originally Posted by mcdirt@1s1k

as for the 450 will kill a 250 any day bull shit. RC lap times on the 250 2stroke was faster then the entire 450 class.

My point exactly.

Originally Posted by Mike@pitb

And when you race a 250 2 smoke what class is it run in? It's in with the 450's. As is a 125 with 250f's.
.

wrong. in the d-37 big 6 GP's i race my cr 250 2-stroke in the 250 4-stroke class..... i race 250 int, and my times are top 10 when compared to the 450 int class times. i think in the end it is not the bike its the rider...

Originally Posted by roostthemoon

Waste what time?

Read it again. Research and Development. They would have to design 2 bikes, build 2 bikes and then develop parts for the 2 bikes. All of that costs time and money. Time at the tracks, time paying riders and mechanics for 2 different bikes. They cut the cost in half by only building one bike.

With the economy the way it is, factories are looking for anything to save money.

Why do you think Honda no longer makes a 650 any more? The demand wasn't there.


As for classes and which bike you can ride it in the factories only give a shit about 2 series. Supercross and Motocross. That's it.

Mike@PitB I think you have it all wrong. I myself am a 4 stroke fan and not a huge 2 stroke fan but the 2 stroke has a huge following still. Read that article below that Khris postedhttp://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/06/two-strokes-strike-back/
There is some very interesting info in that link. We will see what the future holds but that fact that KTM, Yamaha, Aprilla and Kawi are still putting up $ towards R&D says something that you can not refute. Plus Dowd racing on an all new 250cc 2 stroke speaks volumes. I for one think that 2 strokes will make a comeback just not sure to what degree.

Originally Posted by NeverLift

Mike@PitB I think you have it all wrong. I myself am a 4 stroke fan and not a huge 2 stroke fan but the 2 stroke has a huge following still. Read that article below that Khris postedhttp://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/06/two-strokes-strike-back/
There is some very interesting info in that link. We will see what the future holds but that fact that KTM, Yamaha, Aprilla and Kawi are still putting up $ towards R&D says something that you can not refute. Plus Dowd racing on an all new 250cc 2 stroke speaks volumes. I for one think that 2 strokes will make a comeback just not sure to what degree.

I'd LOVE to see them comeback.

I just don't see the factories trying to bring them back for a long time. Hopefully I'm wrong.

whats funny is the company's selling 2 strokes have sold more of them then every other single company's 4 stroke sells.

i dont know i love them and allways will. one thing i hate now going to the tracks are, the tracks are to slow. everything is right out of a turn or into a turn. i miss the days of being able to and being forced to hold it wide open to get around a track. now you will just kill your self.

also 2 strokes are cheaper to build. the factory's save money, and by saving money the prices drop and people will buy. no one buys them because they are not being made. i refuse to buy a ktm, even tho i respect and love how they keep the 2 stroke alive.

Originally Posted by Mike@pitb

Read it again. Research and Development. They would have to design 2 bikes, build 2 bikes and then develop parts for the 2 bikes. All of that costs time and money. Time at the tracks, time paying riders and mechanics for 2 different bikes. They cut the cost in half by only building one bike.

With the economy the way it is, factories are looking for anything to save money.

Why do you think Honda no longer makes a 650 any more? The demand wasn't there.


As for classes and which bike you can ride it in the factories only give a shit about 2 series. Supercross and Motocross. That's it.

Yea I totally understand the $$$$$ side of it. Just dont see it being a waste of time.

Add:
I would love for honda to spend some $$$ on making a new/refreshed 250cc

KTM has always had a plethera of bikes for every type of riding. They care more about the sport than all the other companies.

And every KTM I've owned has been retardedly reliable.....2-stroke & 4-stroke.
My 200 top end lasted 6-yrs!!!....and other than that I lost my rear wheel bearings and my lower shock bearing.....thats it. overweight rider and ridden religiously.
My 450....3yrs old, racing the full gp series each year, with just a valve adjustment that it turned out it didnt even need.

As far as racing 250r vs 250f....u guys are retards and dont realize that the 2-strokes fire twice as often as a 4-stroke....so half the fire....half the displacement....their design allows huge power out of a small hole but unfortunately they are very inefficient.....you lose half your compression in the exhaust stroke.

Originally Posted by BRYANDENNY71

KTM has always had a plethera of bikes for every type of riding. They care more about the sport than all the other companies.

And every KTM I've owned has been retardedly reliable.....2-stroke & 4-stroke.
My 200 top end lasted 6-yrs!!!....and other than that I lost my rear wheel bearings and my lower shock bearing.....thats it. overweight rider and ridden religiously.
My 450....3yrs old, racing the full gp series each year, with just a valve adjustment that it turned out it didnt even need.

As far as racing 250r vs 250f....u guys are retards and dont realize that the 2-strokes fire twice as often as a 4-stroke....so half the fire....half the displacement....their design allows huge power out of a small hole but unfortunately they are very inefficient.....you lose half your compression in the exhaust stroke.

really bad argument.


its a displacement rule. has nothing to due with efficacy. when the rules change to the same as the ama am rules every ones going to sing a new song.

i remember when we were not allowed to bore a cylinder or stroke them because the motor must retain a 250cc displacement. so along comes 450 with a piston the size of a small block chevy to make the same power as one half its size.

now if some one really wanted to get stupid with this arguement and hand the money to spend ide make a bet with them.

take any 450. you can not bore it or stroke it. any thing eles (no nos no turbo no funny shit) goes and ill bet i can do the same with a 250 2 stroke and make way more power.

incase any of you think the 450 will win you havnt been in the game to know a 4 stroke will shut down in the rpm range long long befor thee 2 stroke will be done reving like a pissed of ex wife.


so so so many things can be done to a 2 stroke to make power with out boring and cheaper hp per $ then a 4 stroke.

your arguement is also how the 4stroke of today grandfathered its ass into ama with its modern f1 technoligy.

any one who never got a chance to ride a full size 2 stroke dont know what they missed. and any one who has rode them then went to a 4 stroke still like the 2 stroke.

Originally Posted by camper shell fun

wrong. in the d-37 big 6 GP's i race my cr 250 2-stroke in the 250 4-stroke class..... i race 250 int, and my times are top 10 when compared to the 450 int class times. i think in the end it is not the bike its the rider...

x2 and i already stated this above too, how they smoke me on the strates on my 250f

Originally Posted by Mike@pitb

I'd LOVE to see them comeback.

They won't. Trust me.

i hope they do... i have owned bot 2 and 4 stroke. owned a yz426... loved that bike... huuuge powerhouse... buttt my 2 smoker yz250 built the way we did walked off on that 426 like it was standing still. still love the 426 and still have it.. but 9 outta 10 rides i take the 250 out.

Originally Posted by BRYANDENNY71

KTM has always had a plethera of bikes for every type of riding. They care more about the sport than all the other companies.

And every KTM I've owned has been retardedly reliable.....2-stroke & 4-stroke.
My 200 top end lasted 6-yrs!!!....and other than that I lost my rear wheel bearings and my lower shock bearing.....thats it. overweight rider and ridden religiously.
My 450....3yrs old, racing the full gp series each year, with just a valve adjustment that it turned out it didnt even need.

As far as racing 250r vs 250f....u guys are retards and dont realize that the 2-strokes fire twice as often as a 4-stroke....so half the fire....half the displacement....their design allows huge power out of a small hole but unfortunately they are very inefficient.....you lose half your compression in the exhaust stroke.

caugh caugh broken frame

OK... all the theoretical stuff and HP and Torque talk is great.

Buuuuuuuuut, throw your leg over a 450 4 stroke.. and then a 250 two stroke. Go around the track for 10 laps and see which one YOU are faster on. Oh and if that's not fair in your eyes... throw your leg over a 500cc two stroke and a 450 four stroke. Bet you get the same results.

I used to love 2-strokes and hate 4-strokes. But once I hopped on a few modern 4 strokes, I knew they were actually better for me. The smooth power delivery of the four stroke is just plain easier to go fast on... especially for us normal folks that arent pro's. I want useable power, not peaky power.

Still have a spot for 2 smokes in my heart though. They sure are fun to ride and simple to maintain. Problem is that doesn't win races...as Mike@pitB already stated.

i dont know what your talking about all new 450 mx bikes are peaky as hell! they also have a tendancy to flame out in the low rpm range.