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  1. #1
    Senior Member Ruffstuff Specialties's Avatar
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    Arrow Cryo treating Vs. Heat treating?

    I am looking into options and Cryo always comes up......

    I am thinking a high carbon content steel could be made ~20-30%stronger if Cryo'ed and 35-45% stronger if heat treated and then frozen......I am thinking a 1030 or even an AR? And the surface density of the AR would virtually eliminate abrasion wear and impact damage.....

    Any thoughts?

    For A arms, Beams, Axle housings, and lower links this could be a big thing and still less expensive than chromolly.

  2. #2
    Grumpy Old Man F1sleepy's Avatar
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    Search RDC. I know there have been a couple discussions about it over there but I don't think there has been any definitive proof that Cryo-treating is quite that effective.

    James

  3. #3
    Good time Charlie
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    good luck finding that kinda information around here. deffinately an rdc topic

  4. #4
    "THE GMR" jason@gmachine's Avatar
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    what are you building that needs to be that strong?


    jason

  5. #5
    Good time Charlie
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    i have heard of it done inthe nascar world on ring and pinion gears and they last longer

  6. #6
    Senior Member Ruffstuff Specialties's Avatar
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    Default I was actually leaning more.....

    To the compounding effect of heat treating and then cryo treating, done in order it has had excellent results on hard parts, gears, hubs, etc....

    Of course ALL of the welding needs to be complete, no adding a tab here and there later....

    I didn't find anything definitive on RDC either, I think I need to have a long talk with a metalurgist....I thought this question would have brought out all of the closet metals scientists'.....

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    Grumpy Old Man F1sleepy's Avatar
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    You mentioned using a cheaper metal and then bringing it up to a higher hardness level. Is your goal to produce a stronger part at a lower cost? I don't know what it would cost to heat treat and then cryo, but I would imagine the cost would be greater than using 4130 to begin with and then just heat treating.

    James

  8. #8
    Senior Member Ruffstuff Specialties's Avatar
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    Default it would be cheaper than Chromo.....

    But not exactly cheap.....

    Just a higher carbon content material, I like things bulletproof and if it can be done for less so much the better!

    Heat treating and cryo can be done for a fair price if you are doing quantities at the same time. I'm looking at 8 pairs of lower arms or beams plus buckets of smaller non welded parts for about $700 total, if you factor in the small parts its less than $60 a pair......The small parts get to pay their share also Thats a pretty good price for the added strength at still a lower cost material.....

  9. #9
    Senior Member Ruffstuff Specialties's Avatar
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    Default Btw....

    Merry Christmas!

  10. #10
    Grumpy Old Man F1sleepy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffstuff Specialties View Post
    But not exactly cheap.....

    Just a higher carbon content material, I like things bulletproof and if it can be done for less so much the better!

    Heat treating and cryo can be done for a fair price if you are doing quantities at the same time. I'm looking at 8 pairs of lower arms or beams plus buckets of smaller non welded parts for about $700 total, if you factor in the small parts its less than $60 a pair......The small parts get to pay their share also Thats a pretty good price for the added strength at still a lower cost material.....
    At those quantities it seems it would be worth it for you as long as you can get the parts up to the hardness level you desire. I wonder how much the parts will warp after both processes?
    I would imagine this is being done by someone if the benefits outweigh the costs. Sounds like a pretty cool idea to me, but I'm no metallurgist.

    Oh, and Merry Christmas!

    James

  11. #11
    Army Stunt Man Rockpunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffstuff Specialties View Post
    I am looking into options and Cryo always comes up......

    I am thinking a high carbon content steel could be made ~20-30%stronger if Cryo'ed and 35-45% stronger if heat treated and then frozen......I am thinking a 1030 or even an AR? And the surface density of the AR would virtually eliminate abrasion wear and impact damage.....

    Any thoughts?

    For A arms, Beams, Axle housings, and lower links this could be a big thing and still less expensive than chromolly.
    Have you PM'd 66CJDean on Pirate4x4 that does Cryo treating?
    As I'm sure your well aware since your a vendor there as well,but theres a few folks over there offering heat/cryo 66cjdean,bobby long are two that come to mind.I know they'd be more then willing to asnwer your questions.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Ruffstuff Specialties's Avatar
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    Default Dean already makes somethings for us.....

    And we have been talking, just looking for more input.....He does both Heat and Cryo so he is who I would deal with, most guys do one or the other but not both.....I talked to Bobby Long about it about a year ago and he really wasn't sure.....the theory is there, just putting it in practice.....BTW, Dean said he would have no problem with warp.

  13. #13
    Uno mas Cervesa! partybarge_pilot's Avatar
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    I have had several things cryoed, form the Valves in My bike to the brake rotors and gears for one of the TT's I used to work on. Got better than average life out of the parts, I don't know that the life of them was increased as much as they claimed, but it was a noticeable difference.
    Redneck in training.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Ruffstuff Specialties's Avatar
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    Default Did you have any problems......

    Quote Originally Posted by partybarge_pilot View Post
    I have had several things cryoed, form the Valves in My bike to the brake rotors and gears for one of the TT's I used to work on. Got better than average life out of the parts, I don't know that the life of them was increased as much as they claimed, but it was a noticeable difference.
    With glazing on the rotors? I was thinking about them but thought a little softer metal there wouldn't hurt.

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    Grumpy Old Man F1sleepy's Avatar
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    I would think pad selection would be the major factor in glazing. I've never seen a rotor glaze. In my experience, ceramic pads are too hard for most applications. I have trashed several rotors with them and the pads constantly glaze. I went to a standard metallic based pad and have had much better results. Now I will see how my new Hawk DTC pads work out with 4 piston Willwoods.

    James

  16. #16
    Uno mas Cervesa! partybarge_pilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffstuff Specialties View Post
    With glazing on the rotors? I was thinking about them but thought a little softer metal there wouldn't hurt.


    Glazing? Hahahaha, surely you jest. Have you ever seen the pads most TT's run? When you have sparks coming off the rotors, glazing is going to be the least of your worries. I'm talking time before they wore down enough to let the pistons pop out of the caliper bores. The goal was to have aggressive pads for good brakes with rotors that would last for about 1200 miles. One set of pads we got that stopped REALLY good ate through a set of billet CNC rotors in 250 miles. Thats a little hard on the old pocket book and really sucks in a 500 mile race........
    Redneck in training.

  17. #17
    Uno mas Cervesa! partybarge_pilot's Avatar
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    Oh, and don't ever cryo your pads...........
    Redneck in training.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Ruffstuff Specialties's Avatar
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    Default .....

    Quote Originally Posted by partybarge_pilot View Post
    Glazing? Hahahaha, surely you jest. Have you ever seen the pads most TT's run? When you have sparks coming off the rotors, glazing is going to be the least of your worries. I'm talking time before they wore down enough to let the pistons pop out of the caliper bores. The goal was to have aggressive pads for good brakes with rotors that would last for about 1200 miles. One set of pads we got that stopped REALLY good ate through a set of billet CNC rotors in 250 miles. Thats a little hard on the old pocket book and really sucks in a 500 mile race........
    Good enough answer for me......I don't think cryo treating brake pads would have ever entered my mind......

  19. #19
    Mega Member LostInOC's Avatar
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    My experience with cryo treating parts has been pretty successful. one word of advice...it doesn't work so great on complex structures with welds. consider the expansion contraction properties of metals such as chromo and mild....when heated or chilled they tend to shrink and grow quite a fair amount.....not good for the welded joints or weaker parts that grow/shrink at a different rate than other parts of the structure (warpage). cast or machined solid parts do however benefit from cryo treatment. keep it to the gears, rotors, motor internals, etc...
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