Thread: Johnson Valley Marine corps expansion

Originally Posted by Glamisfoxgurl182

I thank you guys for not yelling out Patty when you seen me!!! I might of had to take you down haha

It was a good meeting, I say they do alternative 3...that why it wont affect us at all. Although if they really wanted "our" area it would be ok for them to do alternative 4 or 5. Then we would still have the area for 10 months out of the year which means we can still race! and the military said they would probably use their two months in the summer time. Which they can have it then!

it was great seeing everyone there last night supporting out land..

now onto the meeting... the military personel there were blowing smoke up everyones asses... when i asked what 2 months they wanted i was told 1 month spring and 1 month fall... which means we would only get about 1-2 months usable time before it became summer and hot as crap... funny how they tell you 1 thing and me another... after talking with friends it seemed as if all the answers were like that. nobody really had hard concrete answers... everything was wishy washy. This seemed more like a dog and pony show where they just put it on because they have too, but in the end what they are telling you isnt what will happen...

i also like the one poster about noise levels... they will be kept to an acceptable level... i asked what that was and she said acceptable... i told her my acceptable and her acceptable where probably two different levels... and she laughed and said probably..

i was also told spring and fall.

Originally Posted by 84prerunner

i was also told spring and fall.

McArthur (black fellow) said June/July because it will simulate Afghan.
An older white fellow said spring and fall. No reasoning

Like hxc said, the marines themselves need to get their own facts straight!

Can anyone post a pdf or html link to the comment form so I can post it around facebook, and print some out?

Fox-1420

Nothing is set in stone as for what month they will use the land. The Marines will have know clue as for how to answer a lot of our questions. These meetings are for us to learn about all the alternatives they propose and to comment on which ones we want. Thats what I got out of it anyway. SEND IN YOUR COMMENTS! LOTS OF THEM!

I figured this thread would have blown up with comments already! Where is everyone?? I sure hope there are more people going to tonights meeting.

I believe there is a lot of talk about going, but when it comes to going, those people don't want to go. Props to who did go! Send those comments!

Fox-1420

i talked to the black guy at the victorville one today and he seemed to know some things from what he told me. i would love to see number 3 get approved but that will never happen.

Originally Posted by glamiskid395

Can anyone post a pdf or html link to the comment form so I can post it around facebook, and print some out?

Props to Wayne Nosala for setting up this link to comment form used at the meetings:
http://pfjv.org/New%20Comment%20Form.pdf

Or submit comments on-line at:
https://extranet.tecinc.com/29Palms_DEIS/

or mail em to:

Naval Facilities Engineering Command, Southwest
ATTN: 29Palms EIS Project Manager
1220 Pacific Highway

San Diego, CA 92132-5190

Remember that the best comments are the ones that point out problems with the draft Eis. Simple votes for one alternative or another might get tallied up, but they won't carry alot of weight. Make them do alot more study before the final Eis comes out in December.

Best kind of comments (and it's real good when you refer them to page numbers or sections in their draft Eis) -

Let them know that there alternatives are not complete. (how many times do we have to tell them? Study repeal of wilderness. Study just north half of Johnson Valley without any dual-use area at all.)

Tell them which assumptions used are totally bogus. (like there's lots more than just 300,000 visitors in Johnson Valley every year!)

Point out inaccurate statements in the Eis. (like a 25% reduction in taxes and sales in the high desert is definitely significant - they say "less than signficant". Ditto for the noise impact they say would be "less than signficant")

Point out where there analysis is not adequate. (like there's no information on the costs for buying the private lands and mines! Someone told me $50-100 million at the Ontario meeting. Why can't some areas like Stoddard and Razor be expanded? There's no mention of replacement lands for mitigation areas closed to wheeling. or why can't the BLM sell surplus land and then use the income to buy recreation lands? or why cant $s be apropriated from congress for OHV replacement land if Johnson Valley is closed?)

Line out the stuff we brought up in 2008 that they have ignored and not studied. (like they forgot to study cumulative loss of OHV areas throughout the region. or they didn't study vibrations from the ordinance. or they didn't analyse impact of the 2-3 new radio beacons that would be built. Or they haven't pointed out how the airline companies feel about more restricted airspace over the desert. And they haven't mentioned the historic elgibility of Johnson Valley and neighboring homestead communties.)

Now that the public meetings are over at which the Marines were to hear our comments, we can only submit them in writing or on-line until May 26 so .....

PASS THE WORD and ATTEND ONE OF THE COMMENT WRITING WORKSHOPS coming up.

NorCal folks can attend Amy and Randii's comment writing workshop at Cal4WD HQ in Sacramento. 10 AM this SATURDAY April 16th. A informal "Friends & Family" Comments workshop "for all those that want to brush up on the ABC's of Comment Writing, get help with reading the document, talk about strategy, etc."

Fo SoCal folks, two comments workshops are being planned. Sunday May 1 in Glendale and Tuesday, May 3 in Johnson Valley vicinity (possibly Victorville/Lucerne Valley).
Helen Baker says "purpose of the SoCal comments workshops is to teach you to dissect the DEIS and find the errors, the weak spots and the failures on the part of the Marines to meet the NEPA requirements. These workshops are for those who want to go for the jugular (metaphorically), the people who are willing to learn the fine art of finding all of the undotted i's and uncrossed t's. We know that there are folks in our community of recreationalists and residents, and businesses who have this ability and we want to give you the tools." Contact Helen or Harry Baker for more information.

i filled out a comment card at the meeting, and have done one electronically. i plant to do atleast 1 more personally and im going to get some members of my family to do the same.

You got to read this. Start at page 156 with the Marine presentation -
http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medial...%203-26-11.pdf

From the March 26 BLM advisory group meeting in Victorville and many of us there heard this. Now its alot more clear why they can't just train up at Fort Irwin.

The base PAO says:
"What makes the Marine Corps special is that we play really well with each other and not really very well with the other services. We like to have our own aircraft because we think we do it better than the other guys."

But if they "train for everyone to fight on the ground" like he said, then a big question is why aren't they training side by side with the Army up at Irwin? And with the USAF over at Nellis near Las Vegas? There really needs to be harder look in the Eis at training together with the other military branches. Obama wants to cut defense spending so here's a excellent opportunity. Move Marine training to Irwin and work with the Army. Marine pilots should train with the airmen at Nellis AFB. Every branch doesnt need there own million acres of land (or big chuncks of airspace) to play war games with themselves.

I defnitely support the military and want these guys to get the best training. They just seem real wasteful and different branches dont want to play with each other like the base PAO said.

Am I missing something? The more I read this the more confused I get.

Also shared use is fraught with issues. To see how wise military decisions in the past without good public input have effected us, check this out:
YouTube - Atomic Bomb Test on human subjects

I talked to a friend that worked in the Marine core industry and maybe you guys with experience can back this up. He told me that they have done this before and if they get the area for a couple of months out of the year then they will do combat/weapons testing on it and then they will deem it unacceptable for public use year round because there could be live ammunition in the area from duds that didn't go off. So we would be screwed either way.

jumpin in a little late here...

military branches are like subcultures. one branch hardly gives a fuck or talks shit about the other and the feeling of performing inter-service training on other bases is like watching a family of a different color move into the apartment next door.

there are some veterans on here that may support the expansion of military training grounds, but for some funny reason, on paper i am also considered a veteran (haha). the pattern i've seen about passing down information from the military is that they're never fully informative. there are battalions that "train" in open areas of california, but SOME of these battalions' accomplishments throughout the course are only good enough to create a reality show similar to Top Shot.

unexploded ordnance... didn't we have enough at camp elliot? i sure as hell don't want another million or two spent toward having the Army Corps of Engineers or someone clean up another natural resource that they don't have to, they fucked up the california coastline in its developing history.

yeah i'm a little biased and i am talking trash which does nothing, but i wish i would have heard about these meetings and participated in them earlier. i saw this thread some time after the meetings and hearing about the military wanting to take more land kinda got me mad. haha.

your not too late! we gotta keep bumping this up. Marines are probably laughing at our disorganization. This month we all really need to turn up the heat with phone calls, emails, petititons, letters to editor, blogs, signs, comment letters, radio spots, rallies, newspaper advertising etc. Organizations and clubs could send out news releases opposing this project. We only have 3 weeks left to officially weigh in. Then they close the door and go their merry way. We should host some public meetings of our own and let people speak out about their concerns. Make headlines in a civil way.


A comment form to print out and mail in is online at:
http://pfjv.org/New%20Comment%20Form.pdf

Or submit comments on-line at:
https://extranet.tecinc.com/29Palms_DEIS/

or mail em to:
Naval Facilities Engineering Command, Southwest
ATTN: 29Palms EIS Project Manager
1220 Pacific Highway
San Diego, CA 92132-5190

DO IT BY MAY 26. The 27th will be too late.

This is the front page of the inland empire's Press Enterprise today

By May 26 when the comment period ends:

Fill out the page and send letters.

Easy to do and hopefully we will get enough responses to make a difference.

P4x4 thread here
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=977850

Letter generator here
http://dev.aldosgroup.com/LetterGenerator

so i finally sent a letter

Anyone else from Corva get the email tell us to request a 60 Day Extension on the Twentynine Palms Marine Corps Base expansion.

I'm emailing in right now and I suggest you do the same, who know how many comments were sent to the wrong address.

Mike

where do we request this extension?

get on their newsletter people if you enjoy offroading

CORVA to me

show details May 21 (2 days ago)

Johnson Valley and the Marine Corps Base Expansion
Written Comments on Draft Plan Due May 26, 2011


Less than one week left to have your voice heard and to act!

1. May 26, 2011 Comment Deadline!
All written comments on the proposed Twentynine Palms Marine Corps Base expansion must be postmarked or received by Thursday, May 26, 2011 to be considered in the Final Environmental Impact Statement (EIS). Written comments may be submitted via the Marine Corps website at:

Land Acquisition/Airspace Establishment Study

or mailed to the CORRECT mailing address:

Naval Facilities Engineering Command, Southwest
ATTN: 29 Palms EIS Project Manager
1220 Pacific Highway
San Diego, CA 92132-5190

Information related to the EIS is available on the project website at:

Land Acquisition/Airspace Establishment Study

2. The Marines goofed! Send in Comments AND Request a 60 day extension!
When preparing the website and public documents for the Twentynine Palms Marine Base proposed expansion, the Marines neglected to give the correct mailing address for public comments on the home page of the website, and it is missing from all the public documents including:

1. The Project Briefing Paper
2. The Project Overview
3. The Public Info Brief
4. The Trifold Brochure
5. The Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
6. The Contact
7. The Public Comment Link on the home page

Instead, the contact info is given only for the project office on the 29 Palms Marine Base.

The Project Manager, Mr. Chris Proudfoot, has been made aware of this problem, and has not responded to requests for an extension, and an investigation to find out how many public comments have been sent to the wrong address, what has been done with those comments, and what can be done to rectify a mistake that has existed since the release of the Draft Environmental Impact Statement.

NEPA requires and encourages public comment, and the Marines have not given the public the information needed to send in their comments. EVERYONE - send a message to the Marines politely requesting a 60 day extension of the comment period during which time they are to conduct an investigation and good faith effort to find out how many comments were submitted to the wrong address. This is a major NEPA violation, and they must rectify this mistake.

Please contact immediately: Chris Proudfoot, Project Manager, at (760) 830-3764 and leave a message asking for a 60 day extension, or email: SMBPLMSWEBPAO@usmc.mil or do both! PLEASE ACT NOW!!






CORVA

ok... I am a total newb on this forum..

But just FYI if you have not read my intro thread. I am a total land-use nerd. LOL! I HATE losing public lands, and I work to keep them open for my own kids. Off roading is my lifestyle, it's NOT a hobby for me. I don't belong to any organizations...I am just a lone activist.

We have a chance to win this, becuase bottom line, the Marines DON'T need Johnson Valley anymore.

I have done a ton of research on this. Even going as far as reading all the documents the Marines have used as "sources" for the DEIS.

There is a document called "MEB Training Requirements" this is the document that set this whole thing off. It specifically says that the Marines need to expand 29 Palms West. (Which, IIRC, is a violation of the NEPA process, becuase it's a pre-determined conclusion, which they have already started to prepare for by getting funding)

This document was written in 2004, which was before the battle of Fallujah and before they really went into Afganistan. Most of the backing for THIS document was from 2001. During that time, the Marines were being used a a "second army" That's not thier job. That's the Army's job. The new Marine Corps Commadant, General Amos, literally said this. and so did the Defence Secretary.

Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates is quoted saying, “The nation does not need a second land army, but rather forces that can deploy quickly and sustain themselves for a short period of time.”

In the fall of 2010, the Marine Corps conducted a Force Structure Review (FSR) to evaluate and refine the organization, posture and capabilities required of America’s Expeditionary Force in Readiness in a post Operation Enduring Freedom security environment.

This Force Structure review cuts the Marines back BIGTIME. A simular FSR went down in the early 90's and they stopped using MEB's to fight...they used smaller forces.

CURRENT qoutes from General James F. Amos, Commandant of the Marine Corps:

"But we see that’s probably what the world is going to look like for the next two decades. A lot more information there, but we think that’s going to be our backyard because this is primarily the littorals, because these are kind of the nasty missions and things that, quite honestly, don’t require 20,000 Marines on the ground. (One MEB can range up to 20,000 Marines) They may only require a Marine rifle company; they may require a training team to go in and help train border police of some of the nations that we want to help gird up and secure their borders."


"We know we’re a second land army; we’ve got to get back to our amphibious roots, we’ve got to – and then all of a sudden people started using that language. And then they became critical of us: Well, we don’t need another second land army."

"And we’re making efforts. We already cancelled some programs that we not only didn’t need but were way too big and way too heavy."

"We are going to lighten the Marine Corps. We’re an air-ground task force. Now, it’s going to take – it’ll go past – it’ll go to the 36th and probably the 37th commandant, but we are going to do it. And we’re in the process of doing it right now."

"I refer to our Marine Corps today as a “middleweight force.” I liken it to boxing: If you’re a middleweight boxer, you can box up into the heavyweight division, or you can box down into a lightweight division by simply changing your weight and your training regimen. The same is true for the Marine Corps. We fill the void in our nation’s defense for an agile force that is comfortable operating at the high and the low ends of the threat spectrum, or the ambiguous areas in between.

Larger than special operations forces but lighter and more expeditionary than conventional Army units, we engage and respond quickly, often from the sea with enough force to carry the day upon arrival."

(You can read this and more here: http://www.marines.mil/unit/hqmc/cmc/Pages/default.aspx)



So the Marines now have a new direction....actually, "new direction" is not the proper term. They are going back to their roots.

They are not supposed to be a "second" army, they are an expeditonal force fighting on land, sea, air and in cyberspace.

They are supposed to be our middleweight, when we have been using them as the heavyweight for years... The ARMY is supposed to be the heavyweight.

So with that said, why do they need more room to train than the Army does? (29 would be bigger than the Army's FT. Irwin if it expands. And after Ft. Irwin exapanded, they still cannot use most of the area they had taken becuase of lack of funds) While the expantion did make sense a decade ago when we were using the Marines as the heavyweight...it shouldn't now with this re-vamping of the Corps.

I am hoping no one reads this and thinks that I am slamming on the Marine Corps. Far from it. I have a high regard for anyone in our services and I am beyond thankfull for their service to our country....I am mearly stating the new mission statement of the Marine Corps as I have read it from General James F. Amos.

Wow, you've done a lot of research and looked into this deeply. Good on you! Good to see people that passionate about something these days.


Sent from my mind using Telekinesis.

thanks for posting all of that, i read most of that on pirate but it doesnt hurt to spread the word. thanks for all your hard work!

Is anyone else going to the BLM Advisory Committee meeting in San Diego on Saturday?
Location is Handlery Hotel, 950 Hotel Circle North, San Diego, CA
Wear your off-road shirt and hat.
Sign up and speak at the comment period at NOON.
Thats right after the report about the Cal OHV commision.
Respectfully ask the DAC to take a stand on the Marine expansion.
Ask them to request a extension of the comment period.

Damn, I can't make that one... Let's keep this at the top for all the San Diego people though! Anyone who can make it, should. There's a lot of racers and shops down that way.

cant make that one either. SD people DO IT!

I heard that the extension that we were all hoping for, got DENIED.

Originally Posted by 1sickexplorer

I heard that the extension that we were all hoping for, got DENIED.

Mr. Proudfoot blatantly said NO extension when asked about it at the ohvmvr meeting. It could actually be a good thing ifany of the org's are trying to show that they did not comply with NEPA procedure.

Originally Posted by zentipede

Is anyone else going to the BLM Advisory Committee meeting in San Diego on Saturday?
Location is Handlery Hotel, 950 Hotel Circle North, San Diego, CA
Wear your off-road shirt and hat.
Sign up and speak at the comment period at NOON.
Thats right after the report about the Cal OHV commision.
Respectfully ask the DAC to take a stand on the Marine expansion.
Ask them to request a extension of the comment period.

Damn it! I have to go to Utah Saturday for a funeral for my Aunt.

Maybe I have missed it but does anyone know what is going on with this? I talked to shannon campbell (king of the hammers racer) about this last weekend at the off road show and he didn't know SHIT about it. How is it that these guys that race there don't know anything about it? That is just lame! I had this on my face book and got people that don't even offroad or live in this state to submit comments. I have been wondering what is going on with it though.


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that is crazy that shannon didnt know, guess when you race as much as he does and dont go on forums much it could get over looked. im also wondering what the next step is.

ya he races soo much that he has time for nothing else.....

Ya well if we all (and I mean everyone from us to those "busy racers") don't get involved and voice our concern then at some point (after they shut all of our land down) he should have plenty of time to worry about it. In my opinion people like him and the other big names could be the best way to get the word out and get people involved.


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I was invited to ORBA's lunch briefing at the Off Road Expo providing information on what the latest news regarding the expansion. ORBA is connected with lobbyist in our favor and involved on some of the congressional committees as advisers.

We need to support this organization. I know i do.

The final base expansion EIS is scheduled for released in January 2012. Response to public comments will be included in the Final EIS, and the Marine Corps expressed first hand information that lead the group to believe that they are reading every one of the approximant 22,000 comments delivered to them during the comment period. The Final Record of Decision (ROD) is expected in April 2012. From there, the EIS will be submitted to the Department of Interior and subsequent submission to Congress. There is no estimated time frame for those actions.

EIS= Environmental impact study


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