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  1. #81

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    Do some test bends on your bender. Mark on your die where the bend actually starts. Keep those bends and use them for mocking up hoops. Measure your distances from bend start to bend start and there you go. It takes some practice. Designing your parts w/ manufacturing in mind is important.

  2. #82
    Twig rangerbrandon's Avatar
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    Im about to cage my ranger and im looking to get solid body mounts, who do you guys suggest? Its a 2000 ex. cab. Thanks

  3. #83
    "THE GMR" jason@gmachine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rangerbrandon View Post
    Im about to cage my ranger and im looking to get solid body mounts, who do you guys suggest? Its a 2000 ex. cab. Thanks
    pucks of alum cut to the proper size.

    here are some i made.



    Jason

  4. #84
    Twig rangerbrandon's Avatar
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    Is there a general size? Or what i know absolutly nothing about body mounts. The the price on those?

  5. #85
    "THE GMR" jason@gmachine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rangerbrandon View Post
    Is there a general size? Or what i know absolutly nothing about body mounts. The the price on those?
    those were made for the truck we caged. I dont have a price on them, but i can make a set for you. I just need the dimensions for the truck you are going to use them on. These were on a dodge. I think they were about 1.6" tall or something in that ballpark. I would have to look at my notes from the build to be sure.


    Jason

  6. #86
    Twig rangerbrandon's Avatar
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    So you just need the size of my stock ones? When i get some time ill call you, damn holidays keep me busy..

  7. #87
    "THE GMR" jason@gmachine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rangerbrandon View Post
    So you just need the size of my stock ones? When i get some time ill call you, damn holidays keep me busy..
    yeah, the with can very some. The height is where the important number is at.

    Jason

  8. #88
    Senior Member shorty2305's Avatar
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    Was searching for some info and stumbled upon this thread. Figured i'd bump it cause there's some good info.

    Also had a question on material strength. In the first post of this thread the op talks a bit about material strength between DOM, HREW, and 4130. My question is, can a cage made from HREW that was built properly save me in a high speed rollover. I hate to be cheap, but i'm going to be building my first cage EVER, and imagine down the road it will be re-done. And if i can save money on it I would like to. But if HREW isn't gonna be strong enough it wouldn't be worth it. Anyone out there know the strength difference between the two?
    Whaaaaaaat?

  9. #89
    U-member? Ant92ford's Avatar
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    Great thread to bump.

  10. #90
    ......................... Scott F's Avatar
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    Shorty, I recommend that you build your first cage out of mild steel. Do a lot of research on the design, and post your design on this site and RDC. You will get a lot of good constructive reviews and suggestions.

    A properly designed mild steel cage will be stronger than a poorly designed 4130 cage. In a severe rollover, a mild cage may deform a little, but if it is well designed and welded, it will serve the purpose and save your life.

    After you build your first cage, you will have learned a lot about cage design and fabrication technique. You will then be in a better position to benefit from the use of 4130 if you choose.


    Quote Originally Posted by shorty2305 View Post
    Was searching for some info and stumbled upon this thread. Figured i'd bump it cause there's some good info.

    Also had a question on material strength. In the first post of this thread the op talks a bit about material strength between DOM, HREW, and 4130. My question is, can a cage made from HREW that was built properly save me in a high speed rollover. I hate to be cheap, but i'm going to be building my first cage EVER, and imagine down the road it will be re-done. And if i can save money on it I would like to. But if HREW isn't gonna be strong enough it wouldn't be worth it. Anyone out there know the strength difference between the two?

  11. #91
    Senior Member shorty2305's Avatar
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    Thanks that's what i was looking for. If it'll save my skin in a rollover that's all i care about.
    Whaaaaaaat?

  12. #92
    Twig rangerbrandon's Avatar
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    Found this in my Fav's thought id bump for others.

  13. #93
    "THE GMR" jason@gmachine's Avatar
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    good thread.
    anyone have any specific areas of a cage they want to have pics of for reference?

    jason

  14. #94
    Twig rangerbrandon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason@gmachine View Post
    good thread.
    anyone have any specific areas of a cage they want to have pics of for reference?

    jason
    Jason if you wouldnt mind pics of A,B,C pillars landing to the frame. Which style do you guys recommend? Straight on top of the frame, having the tube cut to land flush to the side of frame or having a bend in the tube to land on the frame?

  15. #95
    Senior Member EseLoco's Avatar
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    what are the opinions on sleeving techniques. obviously proper tubing sizes with full circumference welds, but are they considered to be a weak point? and would it cause a truck to fail at a tech inspection?

    the down tubes from the back of my cab are sleeved to connect to the bedcage, would this be something to worry about. I'm not worried about the integrity of the design, and I dont remember reading anything in the SCORE rulebook to contradict it.
    RADFLO SUSUPENSION TECHNOLOGY- (714) 965-7828

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    Smells like cigarettes, daddy issues and broken promises

  16. #96
    Drive Happy CBTF Edge's Avatar
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    Just to let you guys know, I'm saving the "meat" of this thread in Word format and can make it available to anyone who wants it. I'm not going to spend the time to make it all pretty and cite who said what. You can refer back to this thread for who wrote the posts in the Word document, I'm sure they won't mind not having their names by every single post. Once this thread rests, I'll send out final copies. Email is TDMoore@calpoly.edu .

    GREAT information in this thread, a lot of which I wish I had when I started to learn about cage design. Thanks to all who are contributing and are continuing to contribute.
    Last edited by CBTF Edge; 12-14-2008 at 12:08 AM.

  17. #97
    "THE GMR" jason@gmachine's Avatar
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    b pillar.


    2" tube accross the top of frame, then 3/16" plate to box in.




    jason

  18. #98
    "THE GMR" jason@gmachine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EseLoco View Post
    what are the opinions on sleeving techniques. obviously proper tubing sizes with full circumference welds, but are they considered to be a weak point? and would it cause a truck to fail at a tech inspection?

    the down tubes from the back of my cab are sleeved to connect to the bedcage, would this be something to worry about. I'm not worried about the integrity of the design, and I dont remember reading anything in the SCORE rulebook to contradict it.
    if done properly there is no problem with a sleeve. They will pass tech.


    jason

  19. #99
    Twig rangerbrandon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason@gmachine View Post
    b pillar.


    2" tube accross the top of frame, then 3/16" plate to box in.




    jason
    Did you run the tube across the frame like that to make it more rigid and act like a cross-member as well?

  20. #100
    "THE GMR" jason@gmachine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rangerbrandon View Post
    Did you run the tube across the frame like that to make it more rigid and act like a cross-member as well?
    both,

    There is going to be a mile of engine setback in this truck when said and done.

    here is how the other tubes layed out.




    a pillar to frame mounting.




    jason

  21. #101
    old matt_helton's Avatar
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    he did it cus he's a bamf.

  22. #102
    Senior Member radoromper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt_helton View Post
    he did it cus he's a bamf.

    whats bamf?

    bad ass mother fudger???

  23. #103
    You cant afford me SIK_kreations's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by radoromper View Post
    whats bamf?

    bad ass mother fudger???
    no.

    bitchin anal mother flowers
    Please do not hit me up about doing a cheap paint job on ur dd or prerunner. http://maaco.com/ is ur friend.

    **WANTED** Stock bedsides for a 07 and up GMC sierra (not chevy) hit me up before u cut your stock bedsides off for glass!!

  24. #104

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    Thats bitchen, nice job gmr

  25. #105
    DR Mod oorracing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drayke View Post
    it's hard to say exactly what points or members take a load for any given case just because there are SO many different cases out there that will put a different force into the system.

    It comes with experience and R&D to decide what cases you should design to.

    For example, you just mentioned shock & bump mounts. it is possible to analyze the distribution of loads through your cage as the truck goes down the road, or over particular terrain (3' woops for example) with some data acquisition or knowledge of the shock and whatever else. But what you have to consider, is that you generally always want to design to the worst case. For us, the worst case is a 'gnarly' rollover. Now, you should also recognize that each rollover can be different and you're going to get forces coming into the cage from all sorts of different points - this makes it impossible to size your cage to that case. (It's different than designing a cage around a single load that you know the truck will get - as some might do for a bumper) So, all you can really do is design the various components of your cage to be as strong as possible within the parameters of your project and your capabilities, which is what the original writeup aims to do.

    As far as where the forces go... they distribute from the point of loading through the entire truck - tubes, sheet metal, seats, driver, whatever else you have. The cage is there to take the load and distribute it through the rest of the tubing so you don't get breaks at any number of places.

    Hope that helps.


    Just to BUMP this thread.. Because it's a good thread, Is this what you were talking about by load paths? This would be an example of My truck bottoming out, and where I predict the forces would go. Is my theory correct or no?


    Top view and side view:



    "Better to stand there quietly and have people question if you're a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
    "Imagination is more important then knowledge. Knowledge is limited to what we already know and understand, Imagination is limitless."

  26. #106
    #NBHNC Knuckledstr's Avatar
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    looks fine to me.
    project GMobbinC
    estimated completion-2015

    tube bumper How-To

  27. #107
    OG Member Marnes2986's Avatar
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    Question: what is the purpose of the V bar by the windshield? How necessary is it?
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  28. #108
    #NBHNC Knuckledstr's Avatar
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    to prevent the cab from crushing in that area haha, seriously though. the windshield is a big open area with little tubing less force is needed to crush it so the v bar helps. if im correct it also helps prevent the cage from leaning over to one side in a roll.
    project GMobbinC
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  29. #109
    Senior Member Dezert Bling Moto's Avatar
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    very good thread !!....i better get back in the garage and tie some stuff a little better

  30. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by oorracing View Post
    Just to BUMP this thread.. Because it's a good thread, Is this what you were talking about by load paths? This would be an example of My truck bottoming out, and where I predict the forces would go. Is my theory correct or no?


    Top view and side view:
    The straight green tube above the axle would not see load, the curved bar would more than likely see very little to no load. Other than that looks to be where the loads would go.
    Don’t ask for it. Go out and win it. Do that and you'll be rewarded.

  31. #111
    old matt_helton's Avatar
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    where would you project my load to go sandypants? on your chest or chin?

  32. #112

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    You know I prefer the back.
    Don’t ask for it. Go out and win it. Do that and you'll be rewarded.

  33. #113
    old matt_helton's Avatar
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    oh fuck me........i forgot all about your back. silly me. haha

  34. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott F View Post
    Roll Cage Design 101

    I got inspired to write this article after seeing countless ill-conceived designs and poorly executed fabrications on the internet. Here in California we have a wealth of information and experience in cage design. Even kids who are hacking on their trucks in their mom’s garage with a 110V MIG can do a good job with the many fine examples in this part of the country. This information is directed more towards those who are new to off roading and have no clue, and the four wheelers who haven’t seen desert racing technology, and don’t know any better.

    I consider desert race cars like Class 1 and Trophy Trucks to be the pinnacle of chassis and cage design in the off road world, and they are the yardstick by which I measure all designs. The one area they could improve in are non-structural crumple zones. This could be because they would add weight or complexity, but I think some sacrificial tubing or energy absorbing bumpers in the front and rear, and also the sides, would help reduce injuries in endos and other severe crashes.

    This article is intended to be a guide to the basics of cage design. I don’t claim to know everything in the world about building cages and chassis, and I am not a metallurgist, but I am a CAD designer, fabricator and welder. I am always interested in learning more, so please post up with any corrections and additions to the following guidelines.

    Material:

    There are three basic choices for material.

    Mild steel tubing is typically made from sheet that is rolled and welded. The alloy is 1010 or higher. This material is not as strong as the others, but is totally acceptable with a proper design. It is even preferred by some for its tendency to bend before breaking.

    DOM steel tubing is usually manufactured the same way as mild, including the welding. The alloy is typically 1018 up to 1026, the higher the number, the higher the carbon content and the stronger the steel. DOM means Drawn Over Mandrel. It is a process, not an alloy or type of steel. The DOM process “trues” the tube and hides the weld, giving it more accurate dimensions, which also strengthens the tube through cold working. DOM is about twice the cost of mild, and almost as much as 4130. DOM is considered the best choice for most builders, since it is the strongest mild steel option, and it does not require the expertise of 4130 methods.

    4130 chromoly steel tubing is usually a true seamless tube, with chromium and molybdenum added for strength. This allows for a lighter design, with a thinner wall as strong as a thicker wall mild steel tube. 4130 is very expensive and is used most often in big budget builds. It requires heat treating after welding to achieve maximum strength. 4130 suspension components should definitely be heat treated for greatest strength and benefit.

    The size of tubing to be used is determined by the weight of the vehicle, or the class it will be raced in, along with other factors. In general, it would be wise to use a minimum of 1.5 x .120 for lightweight vehicles like sand rails, 1.75 x .120 for mid sized vehicles like pre-runner trucks or Jeeps, and 2 x .120 for the heaviest vehicles like trophy trucks or huge 4WD buggies.

    To learn more about tubing specifications, visit http://www.astm.org/.

    A few more facts:

    CREW = Cold Rolled Electric Welded
    HREW = Hot Rolled Electric Welded
    ERW = Electric Resistance Welded
    CDS = Cold Drawn Seamless
    DOM = Drawn Over Mandrel
    HFS = Hot Finished Seamless
    CDBW = Cold Drawn Butt Welded (Continuous)
    W&D = Welded and Drawn

    11 GA = .120 12 GA = .105 13 GA = .090 14 GA = .075
    16 GA = .060 18 GA = .048 20 GA = .035

    1-3/4" x .095 wall is 1.59 lbs/ft
    1-3/4" x .120 wall is 2.09 lbs/ft
    Steel = .2843 lb/cu in Aluminum = .0975 lb/cu in

    Bending the tubes:

    The first rule of bending tubing is that no deformation is allowed. The bend must be smooth with no scoring or ovalizing of the tube. Do not use a pipe bender to bend tube, because the dies do not fit correctly. The HF “kinker” is infamous for a terrible bend on tubing.

    Notching the tubes:

    There are countless methods of notching a tube so it will fit tightly to another tube prior to welding. This is also called a fish mouth. The most common way to notch is with a hole saw, which is often done in a Tube Notcher tool. Cheap ones are available from HF, and high end models are available from several manufacturers. There are methods of notching on a mill or lathe, and there are also expensive dedicated machines for notching that use end mills or abrasive belts. A proper fitting and tight notch are extremely important for a strong weld joint.

    Designing the cage:

    There are many design rules that should be followed whenever possible.

    The most important rule is to make triangles, not squares, and especially not artsy-curvy designs. Look at any structure in the world, whether it is a bridge, a crane, or a cantilevered sign, and you will see triangles everywhere. This principle should be applied as much as possible to a chassis or cage design. Every tube should be one leg of a triangle if possible. This is especially true of the primary structural tubes. The peripheral tubes like bumpers can be more “artistic”. It’s a good idea to build crumple zones into bumpers to absorb crash damage. It is better to crush a bumper than to damage the main chassis structure. A bolt on bumper makes repairs much easier than a welded on structure.

    Bends are not your friends. Some bends are unavoidable in a design, but they should be minimized, not maximized. Even a perfect bend is weaker than a straight tube. Bends should never be mid-span, or unsupported. The apex of a bend should be a node point or junction for at least one other tube, and gusseted unless several tubes meet at the node. An example of a node is the center of an “X”.

    It is advisable to gusset corners, especially when building a bare minimum cage. This can be done with triangular plates welded into the corners. A stronger method is to weld a 6-12” tube diagonally in the corner, similar to the letter A.

    “T” junctions are called a dead tube junction, as one tube dead ends into another. This should be avoided whenever possible, because the dead end tube will bend the other one when the loads are along the dead tube.

    “A” pillars should not be leaned back too far, unless a second A pillar is added to triangulate it. Otherwise it can collapse into the passenger compartment. The B pillar will be strongest when near vertical. It is always safer to double up on the A and B pillar on heavier vehicles. All cages benefit from a vertical tube in the windshield area. An inverted “V” like this /\ is even stronger.

    The B hoop should have an “X” built into it, or at the very least a diagonal or a V. If the A and B hoops are inverted U shapes, the “spreader” tubes that go between them should intersect the apex of the bends for greatest strength, and they should be straight. The roof area should have a V or X built into it, depending on overall design. The B hoop needs to have rearward supports, typically at a downward 45 degree angle. If the B hoop does not have an X, then these tubes definitely should.

    On vehicles with sheet metal bodies or cabs, the A and B pillars should pass through the floor and weld solidly to the frame rails or tubes. No tube should ever terminate like a “T” into sheet metal, such as a floor or firewall. If necessary, it is acceptable to weld a plate to each tube, on each side of the sheet metal, and use four bolts to connect them together, but only if the cab is solid mounted to the frame. Otherwise the sheet metal can tear when the cab flexes on rubber mounts. The least desirable arrangement is to keep the rubber mounts, and tie the cage into the mounts.

    Most exo cages seem to be designed to protect sheet metal more than the vehicle occupants. Which do you value more? If an exo cage is a must for you, try to incorporate as many of these design features as you can, especially in the cab area.

    Some say that any cage is better than no cage. This may be true in some cases, like flopping over at zero mph. But what if a failed hill climb attempt results in looping out and a triple endo down the hill? What if an off camber slip results in six barrel rolls down a rocky slope? What if one of these tumbles comes to a sudden halt against a large tree or rock? It is in these worst case scenarios when you need a properly designed cage and chassis, fully triangulated, and expertly welded. A marginal cage could collapse, doing more harm than good.

    If you are not 100% sure that you can make a strong high quality weld, leave it to a professional. In general, TIG welding is considered superior to MIG welding, but a proper MIG weld is completely acceptable and just as strong. Tube splices and repairs should always be sleeved for strength and rosette welded, never just butt welded.

    The more you integrate these “rules” and suggestions into your cage, the stronger and safer it will be.
    Scott-

    You are the man! I enjoy reading your posts. You seem to bring excellent info. to the table. Keep it up.

    -Ben

  35. #115
    Garage Racer 1969f100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason@gmachine View Post
    pucks of alum cut to the proper size.

    here are some i made.



    Jason
    Jason, PM sent on those. Just what i need
    Ryan Piggott @rpiggott871 @Dezlinefabrication

  36. #116
    Stigs Dezert Lovin Cousin prerunin554's Avatar
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    http://www.mcmaster.com/#aluminum/=14e343

    cut and drill to your own spec, its what i did
    Searching could help find all your answers!

  37. #117
    ......................... Scott F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenTerrible View Post
    Scott- You are the man! I enjoy reading your posts. You seem to bring excellent info. to the table. Keep it up. -Ben
    Thanks Ben. I am here to learn from others and to contribute what I can.

  38. #118
    Stigs Dezert Lovin Cousin prerunin554's Avatar
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    bump. your welcome
    Searching could help find all your answers!

  39. #119
    Press 1 for English...WTF roostthemoon's Avatar
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    Where is there a link to a site that explaines vehicle weight vs. tubing size/thickness???

  40. #120
    Press 1 for English...WTF roostthemoon's Avatar
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    "Note: There is an allowance of minus 0.010 inches on all tubing thicknesses. Minimum tubing size for the roll cage is:
    Up to 2000 lbs. - 1.500" x 0.095" CDN/4130/Seamless or ASTM 1018/1026 CDS/DOM
    2001 - 2500 lbs. - 1.500" x 0.120" CDN/4130/Seamless or ASTM 1018/1026 CDS/DOM
    2501 - 3000 lbs. - 1.750" x 0.095" CDN/4130/Seamless or ASTM 1018/1026 CDS/DOM
    3001 - 4000 lbs. - 1.750" x .120" CDN/4130/Seamless or ASTM 1018/1026 CDS/DOM
    Over 4000 lbs. - 2.000" x 0.120" CDN/4130/Seamless or ASTM 1018/1026 CDS/DOM "


    Is this still current??

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